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I had also noticed as a previous post that my acceleration was reduced after getting several campaigns completed. I want to get the most out of my car but without making drastick changes. So I decided to start with the intake. I couldn't find any after market intakes specifically for the Ghibli so I walked into my local Auto Zone and purchased 2 airfilters. I removed the air filter housing completely, making sure I was carefull and didn't damage annthing. I fabricated a aluminium braket to hold the new filter in place and even had a friend engrave the trident on the plate. Once I installed it I took it for a drive and immediatly noticed a difference. The exhaust note is better than it was before I had the campaigns done and the horsepower seems to have increased. I am not going to dyno it to get exact numbers so don't ask. I spent under $100.00 for everything. (Air Filters, Bracket, Paint). So now to my question. Is the engine heat going to make a big difference and should I try and sheild the engine side somehow?
 

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In my opinion you may be getting a better intake sound because of the reduction in restriction, but I feel you are also likely getting a decrease in power because of the hot air you're sucking up all around the engine compartment. Keep in mind that this engine has fairly large turbos on it which produce a lot of heat. What you have also done is reduce the efficiency of the ducts which are meant to bring in cold air. Where before they worked by vacuum (because of the suction) now they are only passive and airflow is restricted by the speed at which you are moving.

In this case a dyno test will almost definitely show a reduction in power because you will not be moving, thus air will not be forced into the intake by your speed, the suction effect will be negligent, and you will only be using the hot air from the top of the engine, which your turbos do not like. If you like the sound, by all means keep those cones, but otherwise I would search for a less restrictive filter for the stock setup for the gains you are looking for.
 

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Agreed.

You'll get a nice induction roar but you're pulling lots of warm air into your engine so the performance will actually be worse. Cold Air Induction kits are there to bring colder, denser air into the engine in order to increase performance but these need to be mounted away from the engine compartment or at least in an air filter box that provides some shielding from the hot air in the engine bay.

You might find this a good read: Do Performance Air Filters, Cold Air Intakes & Induction Kits Work? Are They Worth it?
 

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I had also noticed as a previous post that my acceleration was reduced after getting several campaigns completed. I want to get the most out of my car but without making drastick changes. So I decided to start with the intake. I couldn't find any after market intakes specifically for the Ghibli so I walked into my local Auto Zone and purchased 2 airfilters. I removed the air filter housing completely, making sure I was carefull and didn't damage annthing. I fabricated a aluminium braket to hold the new filter in place and even had a friend engrave the trident on the plate. Once I installed it I took it for a drive and immediatly noticed a difference. The exhaust note is better than it was before I had the campaigns done and the horsepower seems to have increased. I am not going to dyno it to get exact numbers so don't ask. I spent under $100.00 for everything. (Air Filters, Bracket, Paint). So now to my question. Is the engine heat going to make a big difference and should I try and sheild the engine side somehow?

Do you hear any more turbo noise? I am not 100%, but I thought the intake air then passed through the turbo intercooler and then a charge pipe to the engine. I dont think you are affecting performance...
 

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Do you hear any more turbo noise? I am not 100%, but I thought the intake air then passed through the turbo intercooler and then a charge pipe to the engine. I dont think you are affecting performance...
turbine noise becomes more apparent with less restrictions and less sound tuned induction chambers. my subaru is completely quiet induction wise and once i added an intake, it sounds like a vacuum under the hood when boost builds. induction - air enters air filter, follows plumbing to turbo inlet, pressureized by turbine, run through the intercooler to remove heat, sent through charge pipe to throttle body and intake manifold. the intercooler will remove heat from the now hotter air but it won't be as effective.

i will have to take the side of more harm is happening than good. higher "HP" feel is a butt dyno reaction to more noise being heard. you "feel" it is faster because you hear it more obviously. you are in fact hurting intake air temperatures greatly. the factory design of the intake scoop harvests air entering the fascia above and in front of the radiator. while moving, i'd imagine they are ambient or just above that temperatures. while stationary, i know intake air temps even with the front snorkel set up reach 130 degrees. you've move the inlet to inside the engine bay which will more than likely significantly raise intake air temperatures. if an intercooler drops temps from 150 to 100 on a factory snorkel set up, hypothetically speaking, then you've now caused it to try to reduce intake temps from ~200 degrees. it surely won't be efficient enough to bring them down to 100 degrees.

i vote you restore it to original condition. if you're so inclined, maybe start pressing an aftermarket tuner for an intake set up.

on a side note, vehicles with a maf+turbo set up can be greatly and negatively impacted by engine modification without tuning to apply new mapping to correct for increased air flow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I really appreciate all this info. I decided I rather have performance than sound even though it sounded great. All is back to normal. I am currently selling some awesome custom made air intakes for a 2014 Ghibli. Guarenteed to give you 600hp. And sounds AMAZING!!!free shipping. I'm joking of course.
 

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I'd love to just replace the crap paper intake inside the box with a K&N type one, but can't find a fit... K&N doesn't offer it either
 

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Dissenting opinion

I really appreciate all this info. I decided I rather have performance than sound even though it sounded great. All is back to normal. I am currently selling some awesome custom made air intakes for a 2014 Ghibli. Guarenteed to give you 600hp. And sounds AMAZING!!!free shipping. I'm joking of course.


Lets analyze the balance between less restriction and a introduction of engine bay heat.
It is first unanimously agreed that the larger filters will provide less restriction which is big factor producing power.
Lets assume the worst scenario of unmitigated engine bay heat.
Still, for illustration only, I f I were being choked I would rather quickly transition to alot of air even if hot, than only a little cooler air.
So significant derestriction can still, possibly, outweigh hotter intake temperatures.


But now lets discuss how much hot air is entering the air filters.
We see that you are exposing your filters to the bifurcating ends of the intake plenum carrying cool air from the outside. At stand still, understandably there is a minimal reduction of engine bay temperature by that open tract from the outside. But at stand still there is no engine load so optimized air charge is not at issue.
But at speed, the denser cool air directed to those filters carrying momentum from the ram air effect will displace most of that standing hot and thinner air, creating a chimney effect whereby the hot air moves away from the filter and cool air, preferentially and predominantly enters the air filter. So how much effective heat are you introducing into you air charge? You also do have intercoolers to make up for the suspected slight temp difference and can get larger and better intercoolers ( I did).
 

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i agree with everyone else, the removal of the factory air box was where things went bad. if he kept the air box and lid in place and simply change filters he would accomplish what he intended to do. by removing the air box and lid, the turbos will suck pure warm air (and its really hot under that hood) since the air will always take the path of least resistance my guess is there is prob very little air, if any at all, being pushed thru the snorkel since its not a ram air system.

by keeping the filter enclosed with a lid in place, when the turbos suck, they are forced to suck the air they need thru the snorkel which is routed to the outside air. like i said this is not a ram air system with forced air being pushed into the system naturally. its simply a turbo that has its suction pipe routed to outside air, so when it sucks, it sucking outside (cooler) air.

again, simply change the filter, but keep the air box and lid in place. this way you get the sound you like but force the turbos to suck the air thru the snorkel which leads to the outside. i would stick to filters designed specifically to fit in the air box though such as BMC. if the filter isnt seated properly on top of the MAF sensor you risk the passage of contaminants entering the engine. i have seen everything from dirt, leaves, cigarette butts inside the air boxes. i suggest cleaning them out at least once every 3 months.

just to show you how bad this was:

the cars engine coolant temps run about 203' degrees F, so we can assume that under the hood temps are a MIN of 200' degrees F, possibly more. so he was sucking 200 degree air.

on the contrary air going thru the plumbing and being sucked from the outside is approx 78' degrees F at the intake (IAT). the difference is HUGE! my guess is his car lost TONS of power by removing the box and lid. to prove this theory he could have hooked an OBD scanner up and confirmed the new IAT readings with his new setup, that would have showned him actual temps.
 

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RAM AIR needs to be defined and elaborated. Dissent still holds.

i agree with everyone else, the removal of the factory air box was where things went bad. if he kept the air box and lid in place and simply change filters he would accomplish what he intended to do. by removing the air box and lid, the turbos will suck pure warm air (and its really hot under that hood) since the air will always take the path of least resistance my guess is there is prob very little air, if any at all, being pushed thru the snorkel since its not a ram air system.

by keeping the filter enclosed with a lid in place, when the turbos suck, they are forced to suck the air they need thru the snorkel which is routed to the outside air. like i said this is not a ram air system with forced air being pushed into the system naturally. its simply a turbo that has its suction pipe routed to outside air, so when it sucks, it sucking outside (cooler) air.

again, simply change the filter, but keep the air box and lid in place. this way you get the sound you like but force the turbos to suck the air thru the snorkel which leads to the outside. i would stick to filters designed specifically to fit in the air box though such as BMC. if the filter isnt seated properly on top of the MAF sensor you risk the passage of contaminants entering the engine. i have seen everything from dirt, leaves, cigarette butts inside the air boxes. i suggest cleaning them out at least once every 3 months.

just to show you how bad this was:

the cars engine coolant temps run about 203' degrees F, so we can assume that under the hood temps are a MIN of 200' degrees F, possibly more. so he was sucking 200 degree air.

on the contrary air going thru the plumbing and being sucked from the outside is approx 78' degrees F at the intake (IAT). the difference is HUGE! my guess is his car lost TONS of power by removing the box and lid. to prove this theory he could have hooked an OBD scanner up and confirmed the new IAT readings with his new setup, that would have showned him actual temps.


Hello mrpa1999,

'by removing the air box and lid, the turbos will suck pure warm air'
'since the air will always take the path of least resistance my guess is there is prob very little air, if any at all, being pushed thru the snorkel since its not a ram air system'

flies against the face of physics or what happens when fast moving cold air meets unmoving hot air. Its pushed it out of the way (up and out of the way) because it is denser and faster moving. This is good logic using elementary knowledge of gases and temperature. If you disagree, then allow me to point out that cooled fast moving air pushes away hot air in nature as well. For example, weather cold fronts are denser than warm air and are often faster moving. In our case, that is because of the ram air effect ( I know this is heresy to you because it is not a true fully enclosed 'ram air system') from the intake plenum ends (from where the original air box was removed) when the car is at speed.

Simple sourced descriptions below should suffice.
A cold front is where cold air meets warm air. The cold air will move under the warm air forcing the warmer air to rise quickly. Because the warm air can rise quickly, cold fronts can cause cumulonimbus clouds to form with heavy rain and thunderstorms. - Kids science: Weather
A cold front separates a cold, dry air mass from a warm air mass. The cold air mass pushes under the warm air mass because of its higher density, forcing this warm air to rise. If enough moisture exists in the atmosphere at this time, then clouds and possibly thunderstorms could develop. Cold fronts move much faster than warm fronts. -http://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/k12/.fronts

Furthermore, fast cool air flow from the intake plenums is still pointed at the exposed air filters which you do not define as a ram air system according to proprietarily named systems with full enclosure but neither do you defend the ram air principle either with your statement, 'by keeping the filter enclosed with a lid in place, when the turbos suck, THEY ARE FORCED (my emphasis) to suck the air the air they need thru the snorkel which is routed to the outside air.' Even in the sense of 'path of least resistant' 'forcing the turbos' does not sound like the terms 'assisting' or 'compelling' since, after all, we are trying to get the air to ram down the turbo compressor chamber making the compressor wheel spin even faster while bringing with it oxygen. In the end, you are simply ignoring that there is fast cold air flow coming out of those plenum runners, even if the system is not fully enclosed. Combine this point with the viably applicable principle of what happens when fast moving air meets unmoving hot air, the basis of your agreement with the others does not say any more than the others have said and bypasses what I have said (read my post before yours).

I find it fascinating that after installing the exposed air filters, the car itself told rfsrose that the horsepower increased. But after rfsrose was told that there was no increase and even worse, rfsrose's last post was unquestioning self ridicule.
 

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the turbos are sucking air from outside the car, thru the duct work, into the airbox, thru the filter and into the turbo.. the turbo is a vacuum. its not a RAM system where air is pushed into the car.

pretend the filter doesnt exist and its a solid vacuum hose from the turbo. where would you want the end of your suction hose to be? under the hood in hot air? or outside the car in fresh air? the filter is simply inserted into the vacuum line to clean the air.

the simplest way to determine the temp it is hook an OBD scanner up to the car. the scanner will show you a live reading of the IAT sensor. with filters in place and lid on they read 78 degrees. go remove your lid and drive around for 5 minutes i guarantee your temp doubles quickly. if the box / lid wasnt needed it wouldnt be there, the auto mfg dont spend money on them for no reason or to decrease power. the box / lid is needed for this type of system.

if you want to re route your duct work so that your filter sits in a direct path of cold air, then i would say you can remove the box and lid. you can re locate your filter into the fog light opening, or some other direct path away from heat.
 

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Denser faster moving air will be vacuumed first....

the turbos are sucking air from outside the car, thru the duct work, into the airbox, thru the filter and into the turbo.. the turbo is a vacuum. its not a RAM system where air is pushed into the car.

pretend the filter doesnt exist and its a solid vacuum hose from the turbo. where would you want the end of your suction hose to be? under the hood in hot air? or outside the car in fresh air? the filter is simply inserted into the vacuum line to clean the air.

the simplest way to determine the temp it is hook an OBD scanner up to the car. the scanner will show you a live reading of the IAT sensor. with filters in place and lid on they read 78 degrees. go remove your lid and drive around for 5 minutes i guarantee your temp doubles quickly. if the box / lid wasnt needed it wouldnt be there, the auto mfg dont spend money on them for no reason or to decrease power. the box / lid is needed for this type of system.

if you want to re route your duct work so that your filter sits in a direct path of cold air, then i would say you can remove the box and lid. you can re locate your filter into the fog light opening, or some other direct path away from heat.

by the 'fast moving cold against hot air principle' expounded earlier. But I am not say it is AS GOOD as relocating the filter aside a fog light in the front as you aptly suggest. Rather, I an saying that it can be good enough, considering the less restrictive larger exposed filter that replaces the one in the stock air box, to see an improvement over stock set up.
 

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by the 'fast moving cold against hot air principle' expounded earlier. But I am not say it is AS GOOD as relocating the filter aside a fog light in the front as you aptly suggest. Rather, I an saying that it can be good enough, considering the less restrictive larger exposed filter that replaces the one in the stock air box, to see an improvement over stock set up.
physics aside, if it were my car, i wouldn't swap a snorkeled cold air intake for a short ram under the hood. not progress.
i believe you're also assuming that the filter and turbo inlet will suck up any air that is blown past/around it. the factory system doesn't allow for any of the air ducted towards the filter to go anywhere else, it is all inhaled.

would not do. stock solution more ideal.
 

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A bigger filter meams something and it is not exactly a typical short ram here...

physics aside, if it were my car, i wouldn't swap a snorkeled cold air intake for a short ram under the hood. not progress.
i believe you're also assuming that the filter and turbo inlet will suck up any air that is blown past/around it. the factory system doesn't allow for any of the air ducted towards the filter to go anywhere else, it is all inhaled.

would not do. stock solution more ideal.


Because of packaging constraints, a potentially too small of a filtration area in the enclosure may also rob some power/torque. A significantly larger size filter next to the duct carrying fast moving cooler from the outside (which is not the usual short ram scenario where the filter just gets under hood air) should prefer more of the cooler air (applied physics-not just theoretical) to effectively improve performance over stock. I am trying to explain the reason behind rfsrose' first impression of improved performance right after the mod, rather than ignore it by burying it with opposing theory.
 

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An open air intake, even sucking in "hot air" makes more power than a box that suffocates the turbos. This has been debated and proven over and over and over again on just about every forum out there. Once the car is moving, AIT's are about the same for both intakes, and the aftermarket intake will flow much more, allowing the turbos to work more efficiently, AND much cooler. In theory, this could even reduce temps post intercooler, which is really the only measurement that matters. More air + cooler Turbos should equal temps after the intercooler that are the same or even less than those coming from the stock airbox. All that said, these are probably useless on a stock Ghibli, but would prob make a good bit of difference in power on a tuned one. I expect at some point one of the tuners will start experimenting with dual cone intakes.

If anyone really wants to do some research into this, look at the BMW 335i forums. This has been discussed thousands of times. The intakes always made power. Sometimes ALOT of power. (30-40HP when tuned)

DCI = Dual Cone Intake (like OP's setup)

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=588574
 

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What those to cone filters are doing, (and by the looks of them they look like cheap paper filters) is just generating a lot of sound,
Why? because the conical effect will emit a radial sound the inside is likely to be some what concave thus acting as a speaker.

Whilst it certainly sounds cool, it isn't as effective as you might think.
The audio effect makes a car sound faster, and that's a big part of the experience.
As can be seen in certain cars being a lot quicker than you'd think (for example a V12 Limousine like a BMW 7, there is virtually no sound yet when you time it's pretty fast)


Now, what this now also does is induct hot air from the exhaust manifolds which heat up to very extreme temperatures, this heat soak will further reduce power the longer the car runs.
The OEM airbox are actually pretty good they channel cold air from the nose of the car down to the oval air filters that have a pretty decent surface area.

That's where your first improvement could be by reducing the restriction of the element.
Reducing any lost air flow speed/volume there.

Now if you want the induction sound and cold air you can make a ram style in take with intake stacks/trumpets in the bumper or grill area (As often done on a M5, M3 BMW)



Here in the shop we actually do quite a lot of work on thermal improvements of the induction line of a range of engines reducing the intake temperatures to increase the air density thus more power.
Although the way we do it goes quite far in that we start from the actual cylinder head moving outward, we also use leaser temperature meters to first get a base line temperature map, then design the appropriate parts CFD test these in the computer then machine them out of very specialized materials.
I'll not bore/lecture you any further if any one wants more details in to the Engineering we have a few topics on this mater on the MaseratLife form and very extensive one on NSXPrime.
 

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An open air intake, even sucking in "hot air" makes more power than a box that suffocates the turbos. This has been debated and proven over and over and over again on just about every forum out there. Once the car is moving, AIT's are about the same for both intakes, and the aftermarket intake will flow much more, allowing the turbos to work more efficiently, AND much cooler. In theory, this could even reduce temps post intercooler, which is really the only measurement that matters. More air + cooler Turbos should equal temps after the intercooler that are the same or even less than those coming from the stock airbox. All that said, these are probably useless on a stock Ghibli, but would prob make a good bit of difference in power on a tuned one. I expect at some point one of the tuners will start experimenting with dual cone intakes.

If anyone really wants to do some research into this, look at the BMW 335i forums. This has been discussed thousands of times. The intakes always made power. Sometimes ALOT of power. (30-40HP when tuned)

DCI = Dual Cone Intake (like OP's setup)

DCI Dyno Testing w/ JB4
A BMW inline 6 works very differently mind you, I've done some pretty advanced induction line setups on both the twin scroll and twin turbo version of the 335I and 535I.
Also BMW engines are often restricted on various points (one of the main is induction) it's all to create more models and pricing brackets.

If a 335i would not be restricted it would come to close in performance to a M3, hence the new M3/M4 runs a tuned 335i engine.
 

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Larger open DCI may still be worth further looking into without a tune...

An open air intake, even sucking in "hot air" makes more power than a box that suffocates the turbos. This has been debated and proven over and over and over again on just about every forum out there. Once the car is moving, AIT's are about the same for both intakes, and the aftermarket intake will flow much more, allowing the turbos to work more efficiently, AND much cooler. In theory, this could even reduce temps post intercooler, which is really the only measurement that matters. More air + cooler Turbos should equal temps after the intercooler that are the same or even less than those coming from the stock airbox. All that said, these are probably useless on a stock Ghibli, but would prob make a good bit of difference in power on a tuned one. I expect at some point one of the tuners will start experimenting with dual cone intakes.

If anyone really wants to do some research into this, look at the BMW 335i forums. This has been discussed thousands of times. The intakes always made power. Sometimes ALOT of power. (30-40HP when tuned)

DCI = Dual Cone Intake (like OP's setup)

DCI Dyno Testing w/ JB4





Great encouraging information. rfsrose's immediate impression of better performance from open air dual cones sticks to my mind like glue. He made it abundantly clear that there was both improved sound AND (my emphasis) pull. It is my impression that he did not get a tune and I am not sure if he made other mods such as air charge or exhaust either. Mine has 3 inch straight pipe cat back with no resonaters, no H pipes, no X pipes nor mufflers with minimal (some now wide angle) and one less bend than stock, soon to be a 200 cell cat straight three inch pipe turbo back. On the breathing end, there is a triple plus capacity (over stock) intake plenum feeding large boxed AEM dry flow cones. There are also more than triple capacity ( over stock) Garrett heat exchangers to replace the stock intercoolers. With the current set up , the car now lunges forward when gassing it a low and medium and high speeds. I can accelerate on the highway in 7th and sometimes 8th gear without needing to downshift as before. I also get better gas mileage due to the fact that I do everything I did before but at lower RPM. My combined city/hwy never goes below 20 mpg now. So it seems that the factory set ECU algorithms allow for some performance scalability (for example, spark timing changes may be allowed to assist rather than hold back performance) with these combustion nourishment increases in quantity/quality. So, also inspired by rfsroses' intial impressions which again point to the Ghibli's suspected stock tune performance scalability, I am about to conduct a test. I ordered the largest AEM oval cone filters I can fit under the hood to be installed without boxes but still being fed by the large custom intake plenum connected to the front grill. I have a small window to do this since lighter forged wheels are coming soon. I will let you know my findings.
 

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Custom work was wrong on one parameter...

you still dont have those new cats on yet? wow... did you get them or are you still waiting?



...namely, the ID of the efferent pipe connecting to the center section was still < 2.75 as the run of the mill and not the 3 inch ID requested. But it was extra long as also requested. So back to England. Should be ready this Friday and another 7 days to receive.
 
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